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elrubio

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 #1 
Does anyone own one or have played them and what is your opinion.

I have a hard time getting beyond the gold bits... but   curious as to how they sound and play and are they that much better than the "Classics" ?
hohner323

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 #2 
i played one before....but i wouldent purchase one....for the price i would go with a 3 switch gabby or a dino baffetti.

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elrubio

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 #3 
Thanks

But pass on the Gabb
JohnGonzalez

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 #4 
They are like an an automobile with leather interior, nicer than fabric, but still the same vehicle.

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Skweezboxmaniac

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 #5 
A friend of mine has a red one, and I've played it a few times. I think it fixes my few beefs with the Classic. I love my classic, and I believe it has it's place in most collections. BUT, I wanted a better more comfortable bass strap....the Supreme has it. I wanted better (more consistent to be exact) button action. The Supreme felt a little more firm...a little more precise on the treble side. I also thought the tuning was different, but I could be wrong because it's been so long since my classic was factory tuned. (I had it dry tuned right after I got it).

I can't say that this justifies the price premium over the Classic...folks can decide that for themselves, but in my limited experience with it, I would refer to it as a slightly more "polished" Classic.

I actually went on sort of a rant when it first came out, because in my opinion, it should have replaced the Classic as it's improvements are more evolutionary than revolutionary and Classic followers deserved those improvements. I also dislike "Limited Edition" ploys. I've always taken that as a company trying to get me to beg to buy something. I'm probably totally off base there, but it's my cynical side talking. Anymore, if a company calls something "Limited Edition" I cross it off my list...I buy from someone who wants to sell to me. I'm over all that now.

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Gilbert

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 #6 

I have two and the feel and action is much better indeed.  I purchased mine before I came to Hohner.   The changes that I'm undertaking to make Hohner the leader en acordeones takes time, but the good news is that change is coming.  It might not be tomorrow, but I feel that I have been given the opportunity to steer it in the right direction as we move forward in the coming years.

Hohner Germany was the one who came up with the Supreme limited edition for Hohner's 150 anniversary.  Was it the right choice?  Should it have replaced the Corona II?   I was not here when these decisions were made.  One thing I am sure of is that I will make the necessary decisions and changes to make our products quality instruments.   I think that the Corona II is still a viable product.   One of my first priorities when I first got here was to make the necessary changes to the Corona II Classic and add the upgrades that you mentioned as the supreme.  However, this takes time since we are dealing with major production changes at the factory.   I cannot promise you a date, but we are moving in the right direction.

As far as limited editions, the Flaco and Steve will be limited editions.

Gilberto


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Skweezboxmaniac

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 #7 
Thanks for your reply Gilbert.

I've already seen more happening in the time you've been at the helm at Hohner, then I can remember EVER happening there, at least as it relates to our 3 row boxes. My sincerest thanks for spurring innovation there. You can always count on us for honest feedback, and no nonesense but constructive commentary. We owe you at least that.

I need a 2 reed FBbEb and I want it in the worst way to be a Hohner. I however am not in a hurry...and frankly am intrigued to see what comes out next. (Though, an Xtreme is high on the list)

Love the Flaco and SJ boxes, though would only buy one should one cross my path at the right price.....won't hunt one down or pay more than it's worth to me. Looking forward to some improvements on the Classics though. (I also dig the "skulls" paint job. )

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gallo7

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 #8 

i have one  but all that i need is learn to play it and yes it is better than classics


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gtstang300

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 #9 

to me they all sound good just depends on the player and their gustos

gallo7

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 #10 

el sonido es el mismo pues porque son las mismas reeds que los classic me refiero a lo demas  en especial los botones ya no son tan ruidosos como los classic y cansan menos


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Glenn

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 #11 
I have owned many Classics and one Supreme. For me the Supreme..with its ( I agree :"evolved" features ) wins hands down for playing Conjuno: tuning, action, comfort, sound.

The Classic has standard wettish tuning, rounded button tops ( which personally I always found awkward ) and in the past were prone to problems of sticking and tuning. I am sure this is no longer the case with Gil in charge. The Classic however was an excellent move to revive the old style wood and celluloid keyboard ( thought less noisy than the plastic ones . . . which to some are thought to be faster )
And the color combinations were a huge plus.

Limited editions are what companies do to celebrate anniversaries. Most musical instrument companies do just that.. signature models and limited editions. Nothing subversive about that. It adds resale value if anything.

Some players, on their own, sought to incorporate  those adjustments found on the Supreme themselves..(pimping their Classics with padded strap, modify tuning, perloid buttons ).

I think it has to be seen to Hohner's credit having invested in features, materials, design, attention and care that address a regional accordion style and the needs of a particular group of players: Conjunto . The same can be said with the Vallenato models. Out of all the producers and models.. I think Hohner has reached out to its playing public. Of the Italian builders Baffetti has incorporated Conjunto friendly features as well. Hohner and Baffetti fortunately remain two distinct types accordions , each with their own character and sound.

The Supreme looks old school with new features,  feels sturdy, comfortable and sounds ( IMHO ) a different box than the Classic.

Like the Flaco and SJ models.. a mint condition limited edition.. may in 10-15 yrs time increase in value, not sure if the same can be said about the Classic.

I'm happy with mine for sure.  G.

As for the price.. well anything limited with some bling is going to cost more. My Supreme is a keeper .

MH

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 #12 
Maybe off-topic but here is my humble opinion.

I love my hohners....but in these days were mass customization has been in existence for decades, people are looking for options, to personalize their belongings. People personalize their cars, plates, homes, websites, clothes, etc, etc, etc.

I would love to see a Hohner website where I can select collor of the grill, type/color of buttons and combine all of that with the color of the accordion. Include a few blings here and there, include my son's name or my nickname, etc. This willl probably never happen at Hohner.

I know all of this customization can be done aftermarket, but I do not want to deal with that, I would prefer for something like this to come directly from Hohner....and what is more important....I would be willing to pay for it....and I'm sure many others would ......I Just spent 3k for a Gabby because there is no way to customizer a 5 register Hohner.

Until something like this happens, the marketshare will not grow and there are many lessons in other industries where products disappeared because they did not keepup with the new trends and consumer generations.

With all that said, I think what Gilbert has done at Hohner is remarkable and hopefully more changes will come. I'm a Hohner fan ( you can tell if you see my Texas plates... )....

My humble opinion.

Saludos!!!

Mauricio
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 #13 
Hohner has been making accordions for over 100 years.  Many companies have come and gone and Hohner is still here.   I don't think they will be going anywhere anytime soon.  For every one (1) custom accordion that is sold, I am sure Hohner sells way over100 accordions in any given week of their basic stock ( in the US alone, this does not include Colombia or other countries).  So I don't think market share is any concern.  Hohner is a major worldwide corporation; Gabbanelli, Baffetti, and other companies are mom & pop shops that can focus on one or two custom jobs. 

But I am glad to see that Gilbert is taking it in a different direction.

And this is my humble opinion.

MP



paulcastor

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 #14 
I believe this is a great subject to Brainstorm. First of all I am a true Hohner fan. Second even though I am new to the accordion and musical arena, I am not new to production, quality and service. I believe that both MH and Pickett have the right input about this subject.

First of all Hohner got it's reputation for a reason and that reason is why they are still in the game today. Quality (Conformance to requirements) has got to be the final product for any customer. True customer service should be easy if you are producing a quality product. Identify a true leader with the energy,motivation and passion to lead and educate a loyal team in the positive direction. I really believe that this has been accomplished with Gilbert stepping in.

I do agree with Pickett that Hohner is strong and has and will be around for a long time to come. However I also appreciate the input from MH that upgrades and new options should be available in the near future. I am not a believer in the old saying "If it is not broke why change it". I believe in that "If it is not broke how can we make it better".

I am sure as Gilbert stated above that there will be new ideas and new steps taken in the future. Just remember that competing and going neck to neck with a competitor is OK. But the GOAL is to be #1. DON'T EVER UNDER ESTIMATE THE HEART OF A CHAMPION. Hohner is the heart and the soul of acordeones.

Gracias

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 #15 

THIS IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG THE CORONA SUPREME HAS A SOUND ALL ITS OWN .CONJUNTO STYLE TUNING IS WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT ,MINE IS NUMBER 26 OFF THE LINE THANKS TO LONESTAR I ORDERED MINE HERE IN CHICAGO NO REGRETS ,OH YEAH LETS NOT FORGET THE LADY AT HOHNER WHO DOES THE TUNING ,EVEN THOUGH SHE SAYS SHE DOES NOT LIKE CONJUNTO TUNING SHE DID A GREAT JOB I FORGET HER NAME OFF HAND TO ME ALL THE OTHER ACCORDIANS SOUND LIKE AN ORGAN JUST MY OPINION


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elrubio

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 #16 
Thanks for all the replies

Gilbert, since others have offered opinions here I will offer mine


Long ago Glenn said that he was involved in "consulting" with Hohner about what could be done  to improve their existing Corona models.. he sent me an e-mail asking what I would do....
I sent him a rather detailed list of suggestions, most of them evolved on the Xtreme series, but not all..

The one and single most important upgrade was not,
R E E D    Q U A L I T Y

Some say that an improvement in reed quality would change the nature of the Corona.. I disagree...  there was a time when the reeds were better....
and they could be better still

Instead of the added features and switches how about something as simple as a least a durall or super durall reed or even a tipo a mano

Now some would say that defies the Hohner tradition, I say that there was a time when Hohner tradition was "quality"

What's so hard about a flat large button, or about more accurate tuning ?


Another suggestion

Not everyone is a three row player

My favorite living 3 row players from the US are
Steve Jordan
Joel Guzman 
(from Canada  Denis Pepin and Gaston Nolet...both have been known to play Hohners and GAston has recorded several times with Coronas...)

however my favorite living 2 row player is none other than Santiago Jimenez JR.. and IMNSHO  surpasses even Flaco on the 3 row.

Don Santiago was a 2 row player.. Pokerworks no less.. and right up there in my top ten all time accordion players...

SO

What about a higher quality Erica and a Pokerwork
The Pokerwork ( Vienna)  to honor Don Santiago
and an Erica for Santiago Jr
Supreme Quality...minus the gold and crown on the bellows...

Caveat...
As a rule I do not buy endorsed instruments... why? seemingly disproportionate  price increases and over sized signatures right where I don't want them
and often garrish (colors) that are a deterrent to purchase. or bizarre features that the "endorsee" had never been seen using...

Take a look at most endorsed guitars and then look at what Gretsch did for the G400 JV  Jimmie Vaughn
now that is a class way to do it.. the one and only time I have seen an endorsed product that really was the "real deal" and I am considering buying it.

Back to Hohner and upgrades and quality...

There is a paralllel here with the Saltarelle line of accordions

These are NOT built in France though designed and distributed there....
they compete with Castagnari considered by many to be the world's best  I have owned 6 and may be buying another.

The Saltarleles are made by subcontractors, most notably by Dino Baffetti and they have used other makers .. these are not the Dino quality sold by Karlos LAndin.. these are specified to a lower standard

So how does Saltarelle justify their prices... well

BLING  and FEATURES   lots of butterfly filligree work,  stops on the left  stops on the right...colors...endorsees ( who are often made dealers)
but what's inside... average quality reeds and some average workmanship and hardware

Then there is Castagnari
made by.... Castagnari...  no paint to hide the plywood...
limited features that are useful.... tipo a mano reeds from Antonelli
nice leather fittings and wood marquetry
Class  

I realize Hohner ( USA) is not Castagnari...
but they could reestablish a standard

I always considered Hohners to be VW's  the old stuff not the new age yuppie stuff  (looks good and doesn't work)

The old VW's were workhorses made with
excellent designs
excellent materials
excellent workmanship

You can make a Porsche out of a VW  but you can't make a Porsche out of a  Yugo ( or Ford or Chrysler)

The Supreme...

what if   the same box was offered without the gold bits which is the main reason I would not buy one, that and the bizarre crown on the grille... just as with guitars, I think it cheapens them
spend the money on the reeds and the reed work and the reed blocks.. the rest is fine ...minus the gold and the crown.


There are quite a few of us that are died in the wool Hohner fans  and we are looking for the quality 2 rows... the older 2 rows  50's  and 60's

fact is many players/fans  are buying up the Ericas and Pokerworks and upgrading them and installing  Italian reeds..messing with the keyboards ( I make retrofit boards for Ericas and Pokerworks, and working on a replacement for the HA11X  series)

I am currently looking for a new 3 row  another couple of 2 rows all while building some ( non Cajun) 1 rows...  looking for some decent 1 rows...
including old HA 112's and 113's and 114's ( pre plastic keyboards

Yes I am an addict.

I was considering a used Supreme but I just cant get over the Gold and the crown and then couple that with that red...

BTW  RED   my absolute least favorite accordion color

The Garnet color of the 50's such as on the Pre Coronas is fantastic... the newer red.. I just can't do it

Thanks for letting me voice my opinions
Enjoyed reading all your opinions
And Gilbert, thanks for all your efforts.. most appreciated

PS  I recently bought another 280...
Skweezboxmaniac

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 #17 
That brings up another particularly vexing mystery...

Why do the old accordions always have to be the better ones? Isn't that backwards? Why can't new accordions be the ones everyone wants to get a hold of. I realize, some of that is nostalgia, and that will never go away (for good reason) and most of that is design/manufacturing/marketing cost.... But I hold hope that the best Hohners can be new yet-to-be-released Hohners.

You'll never hear someone say, "Wow, I love my new Quad Core 12GB of RAM, 2TB storage, 30" LED Display Computer, but I'd rather have an old 80's Commodore 64, or a '85 Apple IIe for my money." But you always hear... "Get yourself a '60s or '70s Corona II....those are the best ones."

I'm fine with remembering the "good ol days" of yore and purchasing relics to remember them by, but I've always believed that the "good ol days" are ahead of me. We should look forward to ever evolving, ever improved accordions.

I feel more of a sense of optimism now with what Gilbert has managed to do in a short time. I know Rome wasn't built in a day... but there's your challenge Gil....no pressure.

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elrubio

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 #18 
Interesting perspective, but am leaving nostalgia out of the discussion

Older 50's and 60's Hohners were better

Keep in mind that Hohner made a re-issue.. The Corona Classic..dedicated to what WAS  the pinnacle in Hohner develoment.. it is my opinion they missed the mark.. but that was the goal...

We had wood keyboards that were not only functional. but looked better and were resonant..unlike plastic.... Grilles were made of thicker material with better plating

Reed quality was better.. workmanship was better

Take Martin guitar as an example

The new D-18 is NOTHING like an old D-18.. except in a distanct viewing.. get close... different materials, workmanship and some design elements were changed

To get the real deal you must order the D-18V ( v for vintage) or the D-18 GE  ( golden era which I own)  and even these miss the mark of the original D-18....

VW   the new Bug is a joke  it is not the "peoples" car of decades past.. it is a caraciture... a bad cartoon

The Mini Cooper...it may be a decent car but it's no Mini Copper 1275 S  of the 60's.. I worked at a BMC dealership and spun wrenches on the originals and owned them
BMW  tried to make a Cooper S... but missed the mark... cupholders sure.. but no soul

If anyone is "guilty" of nostalgia it is the companies.. Martin, BMW, VW  and Hohner....trying to get back too what was...are they wrong too...

Old doesn't necessarily mean better, but example after example point that someone somewhere is trying to capture what was.. but instead of going for the heart and substance , they go for the the visual, without understanding that it starts inside  not outside

So take a simple Corona.. make it in Germany ( or America) use decent wood for the reed blocks, decent reeds, big flat buttons, 58 Bass holes...wood keyboards
tune it correctly and use the original graphics and lettering.. that would find an audience. No gold  no signatures  no hype

As to the future being a possibilty for some serious changes and improvements... going back a bit would be a change from what has been offered for the last 10 years.

I do see getting rid of the archaic design and construction of bellows...
lighter chassis materials... and some other details ( withheld )
Glenn

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 #19 
Thanks for input El Rubio. You are an amazing source of accordion expertise.

Just for the record.. any relations I have had with Hohner (since 2006 ) has been purely on a voluntary ( non-payment) basis, and was solicited by Hohner Germany. They have an amazing operation.

In that period I did solicit opinions from many people, including forum members such as  El Rubio.. who I have always considered ( and do so still ) a valid  expert on all things accordion, moreso than I will ever be.

However, since Gil took over accordions at Hohner USA, I have no longer been active in Hohner consultancy, unless contacted directly by Hohner Germany about things not Corona or Conjunto related. I remain only an enthusiast, outsider and no expert.

Being able to follow the conception and actual design of the Xtreme and Supreme, Compadre and El Rey del Vallenato ..from drawing board to production line... to stores.. festivals and CD covers has for me been an "extremely" ( no pun intended )  interesting, rewarding and educational process  and hopefully , in some way, beneficial to the greater part of the Conjunto playing community. Hohner has mostly to be thankful to Gil Reyes and this forum for the influence, guidance and knowledge Hohner needed to adapt or offer new alternatives, and now for the expertise that guides their marketing.

As for aesthetics... colors .. and trimmings.. and bellows ..they remain ( as in the case of Italian builders )  all a matter of personal tastes.  The bellows "crown" basically tags the box as a limited edition Supreme as seen from afar.  The bellows can easily be swapped out with a standard set from the Classic, Panther or Compadre. 

The lettering font was actually invented  ( it only looks like the original 60's lettering ).. the Xtreme "barbed" decal was a new idea, the Compadre "spiderman" grille with identifiable "H" patterns was an innovation ( for sound projection ).. as were the colors, tuning,

The comfort and tuning features were readily traceable to expressed wants by Conjunto players themselves.

The Xtreme incorporated register shifts found on some high end Italian brands.. which though lengthening the keyboard, are known NOT to interfere as much with volume and action descrepancies between outer, middle and inner row; which was common on the Corona IIIR . This took some engineering.

Aesthetics aside, the Supreme and Xtreme were attempts to please the playing expectations of Conjunto, Norteno and Vallenato players.. all  with the unique Hohner sound, but now with registers, more key choices on models, more  comfort and alternative tuning.

My black FBbEb Supreme ( which I purchased in the USA   )  is as good or better than any 50's or 60's Corona II I have owned .

The bottom line is .. the Supreme didn't pile on the bling..it looked for an aesthetic link with the classic 50's boxes..while integrating greater comfort and more refined sound. A pimped out Classic can acheive the same thing if one has the talent, and is willing to risk wrecking their box.

G.






Glenn

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 #20 
. . . forgot to mention about reed quality.

Many different reed types were tested on the new Hohner line.. dural, a mano, tipo a mano, all Italian or Hohner.


None of the testers or public knew what reed type was in the box.. they were judged purely on sound ( clarity, projection, eveness across the keyboard, range ... )

After many hours of repeated trials in different accordions.. the decision was unanimous by all ( independently and collectively )  judges that the reeds --that were later learned to be standard Hohner reeds-- were the best sounding , best performing.

Basically hours of blindfolded testing lead everyone back to the same conclusion.. Italian reeds , though perhaps of higher quality, will not give you the sound of a Hohner that the Corona player anticipates, expects and wants.

I have noticed that one of the features that the Foro members like about the new Hohners is that they sound HOHNER.

There is a case for  Italian reeds being objectively better ( structurally, and in terms of performance ) ...Antonelli, Binci, Salpa, L'Artigiana, Cagnoni etc... any of them at tipo a mano or a mano level are the standard for accordionists worldwide.. High Level Hohner accordions use largely Italian reeds.

I heard and played the Xtreme and Supreme with tipo a mano
Italian reeds and they sounded MUFFLED compared to the standard Hohner factory reeds. I experimented years ago putting expensive tipo a mano Italian reeds in a Corona.. and changed them back immediately to the standard factory Hohner reeds.

The Baffetti is a good case of an Italian box with Italian quality reeds with Conjunto tuning.. and meeting the needs of the community.. it is the tuning which helps the sound fit into the genre less the reed quality.. Norteno has ( with the exception of Los Tigres and some pioneering groups ) been conditioned to hearing Italian wet tuning in Gabbs. .. so expectations change.

G.



Skweezboxmaniac

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 #21 
That's good news. The fact that an authority like Glenn says that a Supreme is as good or better than any of the 50s, 60s boxes.... That makes me feel better, and that we really are on the right track here.

I haven't owned a whole bunch of Hohners the way others have, in fact I just became an accordion lover during the early part of this decade. My earlier posts were purely based on comments I hear from others. All I can comment on were the improvements that I would like over the Classic that I own (mid '00s).

As far as reeds are concerned... I'm less concerned with what brand they are, where or how they are made...they just need to be durable, and sound like a Hohner. If they come up with a revolutionary new way to accomplish that in a less expensive manner, so be it. Ignorance will be bliss...

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DanChuco

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 #22 
Hi everyone,  I would like to post my very very very humble opinion too with a question for all you texanos (I'm mexican and I love both norteño and texano music (sorry about my bad english)).
 
Well, of course, compared with the experienced moderators and members of this forum, I don't know absolutelly nothing about accordion reeds, but I read this forum a lot because I laern so much form you guys, so I have this very big doubt.
 
Some time ago I wanted to buy a dry tunned accordion to give that awsome texano sound to my playing (of course I immediately thougth about a hohner since most of texanos use them), but as I read in this forum and looked for an accordion to buy, I had the surprise that:   accordions are not made dry tunned from factory!! so I thought what the heck!!!!  I have to buy an expensive shiny brand new accordion to send it right away with an old man (accordion fixer, not to thrust here where I live, I wont say the precise location to avoid problems) to spend another big pack of bills to destroy all what I paid for (reeds made in germany) to convert them into a dry tunned accordion!!

I was kind of surprised because almost all texano players use honers, and they are so loyal with the brand, I mean i.e. sunny sauceda (my idol) is known for his predilection for hohners, but he modifys them all!! a new hohner form factory would not be useful for him.
 
So that´s is my question, why do you defend hohners so much with comments like "Nothing like the hohner sound", "oh yeah hohner´s sound is unique" and u spend all this time talking about what should hohner  improve, but no one talks about the most OBVIOUS need of hohner : DRY TUNNED FROM FACTORY??

Again, I know nothing about accordion reeds, and please don't take this as an ofense, as I said, I love my hohner, I love texano music and I really like this forum, but I just wanted to buy a new dry tunned accordion and couldn't find it. I read that dino baffetis do come dry tunned from factory so I might get one of those.

A very humble question and opinion.   

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elrubio

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 #23 

Absolutely taste is subjective
The Supreme went over the top...
IF, IF it was black and chrome, I'd probably own one.. minus that crown..


The majority oof accordions of any type with 2 or more reeds are usualy tuned to some degree of wetness, tremolo.... and that is in fact what most people think of as THE accordion sound

Here I think Hohner takes it a bit too far..

Most players I know have their boxes retuned for accuracy and a bit drier.. not necessarily dead dry which is unison tuning ( both reeds the same) and in my opioon a little tremolo is fine...

Most folks I know that have owned a few boxes aand played for a while.. have their boxes tuned to their taste .
I consider accordeons ( and most musical instruments ) "kits"
Buy the one that is closest to what you want and have it retuned and set up to your taste. Add stuff, take away stuff, change stuff, make it yours.

A manufacturer cannot please everyone unless they are in the business of providing "custom made" accordions as is Castagnari, Briggs, Gaillard, van der Leeuw, Bergflodt, Loffet  etc.. or Beltrami...even a custom oredered Baffetti
And most of these builders have a "default" tunng which is somewhere in the neighborhood of "swing"...   a bit wet without sounding like a Hohner or a French musette box. which is available off the shelf.. Unfortunately Hohners "default" tuning is
A.  Way too wet
B. Not accurate enough for me
I understand that.. and Hohner sells modestly priced boxes so cannot offer special tuning.. but dealers can  and here I have another observation

Unfortunatley it seems to me to be a Hohner dealer all you have to do is have enough money to buy the,... no brick and mortar store, no repair dept of parts and no tuner.....

Where I buy my accordions they have all the above...
they can tune to my specifications, repair under warranty and will be there the next time you call
Can't say that of most Hohner dealers, and I think that is a wek point.

The tuning and set up work is done once or twice in the life of a box  with some spot tuning and repairs as required, a fact of life.

I think Hohners are too wet..  I do not mind having a nice old one tuned.. but I do wish they would offer a choice between their syrupy wet and perhaps a "swing" tuned box...when purchased new.

I tune my single rows almost dry.  No room in my world for a wet one row.


Those who luv dat Hohner sound will no doubt pick out the Hohner sound.. it is raw and unrefined and has a great deal of character.. sometimes too much character.. some of us like the hOhenr a bit more polished and a bit more accurate and a bit drier... they are usually louder and have a clearer tone.

Here again  I prefer a little less character

I like Hohners because they are a no BS box... light fast, easy to work on and decent resale.  I have never been disappointed in any of my Hohners...

And to DanChuco

believe me... you don't need to know anything about reeds or the details of tuning..... trust your ear. You know what you like.

Glenn

Elite Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,147
 #24 
I understand that Hohner Inc has centralized repair operations in the USA ( am pretty sure it was announced on this site with photo of the new repairman ). Seems in  Europe all tuning and repairs is centralized at the Hohner operations ( they have at least 4 full-time repair people.. the operation is fascinating since they stock parts for most all models made past and present.. ).. as for dealers doing repairs .. I know of  a select few  Hohner authorized dealers actually do in-house repairs ( Ziggie's in Phx is one ). I should think this is the case with most accordion operations in the U.S.: for parts and repairs there is an assigned source which is not necessarily your seller.

The standard factory Hohner tuning is indeed shrill and is more than often modified to player's tastes. Even with the  changes it still sounds Hohner. The Supreme has a semi-dry ( swingish ) tuning which was created from samples of the most widely used tunings in Conjunto music.

 The accordion sounds like the modifications that some tuners ask a hundred or more dollars to do. The Supreme was aimed specifically at the Tejano Conjunto player. Flaco's signature model has a different tuning still .. his own recipe for a drier tuning, but still with the Hohner shrill that Italian reeds ( of whatever quality ) don't produce. I wonder if Sunny S. changed the tuning on his Supreme.. he might have.

Some players actually retain what sounds like factory tuning: Los Tigres and Los Lobos.. and many of the old historic Norteno Conjunto recordings. For that matter some of the original old Zydeco recordings have that factory Hohner shrill in them too.. wet and wild.

As far as conjunto is concerned Don Valerio Longoria may have been the first to actually experiment with the tuning in a Conjunto context... .. often referred to as otavado or ronco voz tuning ( Los Dos G's ..etc ) .  S. Jordan's jazz tuning ( a mix of otavado and unison tuning ( single octave), and what's come to be known as Conjunto tuning .. or slightly drier tuning ( 441, 442, 443 ) gained favor with Conjunto players ( T. de La R.. Flaco .. and many others ).

Vallenato has its own rules for modifcations.. but you will find many standard tuned Corona III's in final competitions.. The modified ones are used often in nuevo vallenato romantico.. sort of like Valerio's bolero's preferred the ronco voz, or Ramon's or Intocable prefer the violin register on boleros or slower romantic songs..

The closest thing sounding ronco voz on a standard accordion is Bandoneon register or the ML option on a Corona IIIR ..





elrubio

Platinum Member
Registered:
Posts: 892
 #25 
I understand the dificulty of each retailer having a repaiman or tuner in house...  most have no clue as to where to find one..
I know one place that tunes accordions that has a 4-6 month wait list.
So in this time of increasing unemployment.. here is an opportunity.

Glenn you have reaffirmed that many players including the talented and famous have their boxes retuned.  And taste varies as to sound and style.

I also believe there are different boxes for different applications and the reaon I have owned a variety of them.

I'll get back to a point though..
tone down the bling and turn up the attention to the reed work, even if they are Hohner reeds.

And there was a time when the reeds were different if not better.  And this seems to be the sound some folks are looking for.. the new reeds don;lt have it

Also the reed blocks.. minor details such as the size and shape of the chambers

Using the same "taper" and not reducing the size of the chamber for the "accidental" reeds.. is a cost cutting measure that affects tone and response.  It's in the details not the bling.
Glenn

Elite Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,147
 #26 
Good question.. but don't know where the figures came from if those are Hohner or Baffetti costs to produce..

I can only estimate :

Hohner builds many hundreds of Coronas per year.. all models with the same keyboard(s)..either wood celluloid or plastic. Am sure they have them stockpiled and ready to stamp, build, sell or ship.

Baffetti makes a dozen or so Tex Mex models per year ( that is an informed guesstimate ). Most are custom orders. each keyboard is built for the specific accordion in production. No stockpiled pre-built keyboards. They are custom cut and made each time.

Baffetti does make MANY diatonic accordions under its own name and as a jobber.. in fact they are Italy's foremost diatonic builder ( despite comments of Mom and Pop operation.. they are state of the art on many facets of production.. and large foreign builders often rely on them for custom orders. Same is true for Beltrami.. truly a Mom and Pop operation..but with know-how that has been somehow lost in mass operations.)

That may explain some of the reason in a price difference.. and to me the cost in production is largely market volume, cost of labour and materials and market conditions. In Italy you have paid full-time ( 11 months with one month paid vacation, Christmas bonus ( one month pay ) and all health benefits paid ) skilled employees. Often in big operations in bigger factories..the work is seasonal.. you do a month working on a run of a specific model..and your job is finished. So you are part-time, paid-less, and may not even speak the language.. or in you may be working in a foreign country ( not Italy or Germany ) and are subject to different labor laws, currency values. Cost price can vary as to where you produce, how many you produce and conditions of production.

So labor costs, volume, specific materials and operations all figure into the cost of building a specific part.

IF, instead you get a quote on the retail value.. asking for a substitute keyboard from either producer.. you will see the real differences in costs vs. sale price.

G>



elrubio

Platinum Member
Registered:
Posts: 892
 #27 
Even with the Hohner Supreme and Xtreme models, as improved as they
are beyond the standard Corona series...

a Dino Baffetti has a better keyboard action and better buttons in my opinion.

So talking about the difference in design and materials and the intended use of the accordion :

ners are good but can be improved slightly with keyboard padding.

The Baffettis do not need this work, assuming you are buying a better quality Baffetti, the difference is significant.

Will the Hohner be ok in most cases and for most players, yes.

I have never seen a $10 Hohner Keyboard...
a Baffetti keyboard for $150.. for which model?  This is confusing.

And why do you need a keyboard ?

Also don't be fooled by advertising and manufacturers or distributors claims about " hand made" ,and made in Italy , finest materials, etc.

I know of one manufacturer who is reputed to have the actual boxes built in eastern Europe ( Romania for one) and assembles them in Italy.

Another manufacturer has parts made in China and ships them back to Europe for assembly.

Another manufacturer who makes boxes in China and claims that they are using Italian reeds...

What really matters is that the boxes play well, sound good  and  priced right according to the materials and workmanship

There is one US Distributor that has for a number of years been able to work off its former reputation and name and charge an unjustifiable price considering the content of the reeds and quality of the
hardware.  It is amazing what you can do when you sling a little BS around and build a myth.

It is my experience that if you shop,you can expect a good value from a Hohner.

Glenn

Elite Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,147
 #28 
Sorry Cesar .. I thought you were asking about why was more expensive .

The Corona Supreme action is softer, buttons are lower and are perloid  and tuning is drier. The keyboard feels faster and more solid than a Corona Classic  All the same features found on the Baffetti.

The Supreme sounds like a drier tuned Hohner .. and the Baffetti sounds like an drier tuned Italian box ( sounding closer to Irish demi-swing on folk boxes .. they do not sound Hohner ).

Supremes are made in Germany. Baffetti's are made in Italy.

G.





ELDONNENO

Moderators
Registered:
Posts: 155
 #29 
  AND THIS IS WHY YOU LISTEN WITH YOUR EARS I KNEW I WAS RIGHT ABOUT MY HOHNER CORONA SUPREME CONJUNTO STYLE TUNING
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