Register Latest Topics
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment  


Registered:
Posts: N/A
 #1 
My question is..............in lament terms. Regardless of what their brochures say. How do we know that we are getting Handmade reeds or not? They may charge us for handmade reeds but how is one to know?????

Are we to trust their word? be it Gabbanelli, Baffetti, Brillington,Castifilardo etc?............

I am a Gabbanelli Man and will be 4 ever but is there a standard method to prove that i have handmade reeds if i were to order them? or do i just take their word for it??????

To be honest with you i could give you yingie reeds and say theyre handmade reeds considering that i have noticed variations even on machine made reeds depending on what boxes theyre in. Have u ever said man that accordion was sorda?? compared to an equal "regular Reeds"? So if we get different quality from whats supposed to be  equal reeds how are we supposed to knbow the difference?


E-z

hardcorechicano

Platinum Member
Registered:
Posts: 742
 #2 

i dont know man? i hear that the plastic blocks are really great an they last longer than the wooden blocks, all they have to do is stamp the metal reed on it an then tune the thing with wax, its that simple......i think the newer sounds ganna have more to do with the actually BoX an bellows an other mechanical structures such as switches/regiters an keys.

Russ

Avatar / Picture

Elite Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,069
 #3 
If you look at the reed the flat square part where it is rivited you will see it has a blueish color - that is not enough - you have to look at the thin side of  that  square and make sure that is blue as well.

Best thing to do is to deal with a builder, dealer or repairer you trust, and show it to them to get a second opinion.

russ

Karlitos_Way

Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 1,755
 #4 
COMMERCIAL REEDS:



HANDMADE REEDS:



COMMERCIAL REEDS:



HANDMADE REEDS:



COMMERCIAL REEDS:



HANDMADE REEDS:



As Russ pointed out, the base of the steel tongue on the handmade reed is blue and if you look closer, you'll see that the sides of that base are blue as well as opposed to the commercial reed.

You'll also notice that the steel tongue on the handmade reed is fixed with a diamond cut-styled nail as opposed to the waffle style nail that you commonly find on commerical reeds.
 
I hope this helps...
harmonikahobby

Silver Member
Registered:
Posts: 222
 #5 

you WILL also notice a difference in the responsiveness of "handmade" reeds...basically reeds that have been given a little extra love in their creation...over those which are just machine stamped & riveted.  They do sound better, use less air to vibrate, are not likely to go "raspy" for a longer period, etc etc......

Karlitos_Way

Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 1,755
 #6 

I concur with harmonikahobby.  Whereas a commercial reed will sound loud right out of the box and become weaker with time and strain, the handmade reed is loud out of the box and gets louder with time after it is broken in, which is typically 6-8 months depending on use.  Also, you'll find that the handmade reed holds its tuning longer and is more durable than the commerical reed. 

Glenn

Elite Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,147
 #7 
The diamond cut rivet is a good, easy to see marker for Handmades..

Now.. as for performance, loudness, in-tuneness you are better off with handmades, and like Karlos said.. they get better ( warmer sounding and louder ) with age ( this is a perception..not empirically proven..but a widespread opinion ).

THEY do hold the tuning high, middle, low range better than others..

As for breakability THAT is a function of the type of abuse and playing you do.. all reeds break if stressed.

As for SOUND.. I have done tests and personal tastes have not always been with handmades.. though I know they are the wise investment.

All your Hohner boxes don't have handmades.. they have T-Reeds ( a different shape and sound ).. and you probably heard handmades on all of Ramon Ayala records ( from mid-80's on ).. but in terms of our ears.. it is nearly impossible to hear the difference.. between factory and handmades.

If you have the money and are getting an Italian box.. spend extra on Tipo a Mano or a Mano ( Hand mades ).. if you are going for Hohner.. get Hohner reeds whatever quality ( not important ).

G:

hardcorechicano

Platinum Member
Registered:
Posts: 742
 #8 

so, wood is better than plastic with age?? kinda like a logg that has been floating in the ocean for a year, verdad?



Registered:
Posts: N/A
 #9 
I appreciate the enlightment on this matter from all you pro's.

Thx for taking the time to help.

E-z

pura_magia

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 61
 #10 

This is very helpful information.  Thank you all.

elrubio

Platinum Member
Registered:
Posts: 892
 #11 
The "daimond"  shape on the top of the rivet is simply hammer marks.

The marks on the top of the "commercial" reed is from a mechanical anvil banging down on the reed


There is also "tipo a mano"  which simple means "like hand made"

the difference here is that the reed is not cut from ribbon but high quality sheet stock  and yes they are blue at the rivet end and are hand hammered.

Only the HAND MADE reed is blue on the edges of the reed at the base becasue these are cut from ribbon stock,  not sheet stock

Actually there are  

Machine reeds
 which are stamped out and plced in soft aluminum frames with mechanical riveting machines and then  only cursorily ( crudely) tuned

A step up would be

Export or Export Dural
These are also cut from sheet stock but placed in harder aluminum (dural or duraluminum_ frames and more carefully tuned and the clearances between the reed and frame are more closely controlled

Tipo A Mano
Durqluminuj  fames with better quality hrdened stocjk for the reed tongue
Closer reed to frame tolerances ,  hand riveted  and much more hands on and creful tuning

A Mano or Hand made reeds
HArd frames with extremely close tolerances,  ribbon reed stock, hand riveted and even more careful tuning

And then there are the hair splitting on each one of these dependng on the reed maker

Then add Bronze frames with handmade reeds.. as are in my 1880  yes 1880  2  1/2 row German made accordeon
Binci and a couple other reed makers offer this

Then there are the finest reeds where  often you will still find leather rather than plastic valves

Gabbanellis I have seen use "commercial" or "export" or "export dural" reeds
I have not seen a GAbb with tipo a a mano or handmade reeds though I believe some may exist.

Casdtagnari, one of the best makers in the world does not use "hand made reeds"  but uses tipo a mano by Antonelli,  they are excellnet

I have also Owned instuments with the Highest Quality handmade leather valved Bincis

And I have owned Accordeons with Dural  reeds...

As a general rule   an export or dural reed can sond asgood as a tipo a mano or a handmade depending on the tuner

I have owned many Hohners that sound fantastic and rival handmades when properly tuned

It is simply box to box

Handmade reeds are no guarantee of anything

However  also in general

handmades.. speak more quickly, can be modulated and sometimes last longer, they are not necessarily louder

However in a 3 row Tex Mex style box  played with vigor  I can see even handmade reeds suffering,,, so if you have them  don't play as hard,,, get a mic.



Russ

Avatar / Picture

Elite Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,069
 #12 
I have also been told of the highest quality hand made reed called a bombata - a friend of mine told me about these (they have some kind of curve in them) although I have never seen one.
I just ran into a reference for them today in the Accordion Connections newsletter.  I quote from Aurthur Welsh's note on reeds:

"Within the Hand Made category is also the designation "Special Hand Made" (also known as Bombate reeds or "Bulged" reeds. These are the finest reeds available in Italy . . . .
Our Acctone reeds are produced by a company called Voci Armoniche. This company was formed a few years ago with the combination of Salpa and Antonelli Companies getting together. They are the makers of the new Special Bombate reed, the finest produced in Italy."

The Accordion connection site is:

http://www.accordionconnection.com/Home.htm

and you can sign up for the newsletter there if you like.

I have just heard of these by reference and would be interested in a picture or two of the Bombate reed and how they play.  I have been told that they have a different tonal characteristic from a regular handmade.  Anyone familiar with these reeds?
russ


aguillon

Elite Member
Registered:
Posts: 2,213
 #13 

Whether im not wrong and according to I've read so far,can I assume that if I have an accordion equipped with hand made reeds,I own a more lasting/noisy accordion that if I had one equipped with the commercial ones? just curious..

cascavel

Registered:
Posts: 73
 #14 

speaking of reeds,I just came accross some with an elks head stamped on them. The late Tony Delarosa would talk about this reeds as being the best reeds for hohner.  Gus Escobar


__________________
a.f.escobar
jmp6996

Avatar / Picture

Silver Member
Registered:
Posts: 158
 #15 

hey well im trying to find F-Bb-Eb (fa)reeds for a hohner accordion in houston 31 buttons does anyone know where or how i could buy them i tried gabbanelli but there to expensive


__________________
Dont Forget about us bass players! <)
squiz1box

Elite Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,027
 #16 

Vincent Winterbourne, one of our forum members, gave me a name of a place in Corpus Christi. I believe it was Galvan's Music Center. I did call them a couple of times. They'd tell me they would call me back, but they never did. Maybe it was because they didn't want to incur long distance phone calls.

tim_g_schofield

Avatar / Picture

Silver Member
Registered:
Posts: 187
 #17 
Elrubio does an excellent job explaining the various types of reeds and their characteristics. Especially noting "As a general rule   an export or dural reed can sound as good as a tipo a mano or a handmade depending on the tuner" This can not be overstated. A reed will only sound and respond as good as it's voiced. Voicing is the process of checking and regulating items such as the gap of the reed, the tolerance to the vent, the stiffness and placement of the valve, the stiffness of the reed..... and so many other aspects that affect the overall tone that the reed makes. The actual tuning of the reed is only a part of tuning an accordion.
tim_g_schofield

Avatar / Picture

Silver Member
Registered:
Posts: 187
 #18 
The "waffle" marks on Hohner T-reeds are made from the upper press die that rivets the reed tongues to the plate.

Attached Images
Click image for larger version - Name: Press.JPG, Views: 732, Size: 108.38 KB 

David

Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 871
 #19 
Welcome to the forum Tim.  Gilbert told me that you would be checking in.  I am creating a new forum that will be called Tim's Corner (Hohner Accordion Repair Supervisor).  If you want something else, let me know.


EnriqueFonseca

Avatar / Picture

Gold Member
Registered:
Posts: 485
 #20 
Que tal brothers,

I agree, this helps a lot, my father use to tell all this things since I was a little kid, my Dad was a very dedicated man on tunning his accordions and other muscicians accordions as well, I'm sure this will help a lot of our friends to be alert and be able to tell which reeds are really handmade, I've known alot of people that think they bought "handmade" specially younger guys that have no expirience on this type of issues.

__________________
La Vida. El Mas Importante De Los Derechos! Life. The Most Important Human Right!
pedrordzaries

Registered:
Posts: 42
 #21 
I need to buy gabbanelli accordion reeds!!! 5 swtch fa
elrubio

Platinum Member
Registered:
Posts: 892
 #22 
There are no "Gabbanelli" reeds. 

There are reeds used by Gabbanelli which have ranged from commercial  ie machine made, tipo a mano and some claim a mano which I have never seen in a Gabb.

They have used many brands of reeds including Cagnoni and Antonelli.
johnpaulcampos

Registered:
Posts: 54
 #23 
My recent experience with Gabbanelli over the phone, they claim they sell reeds a, "mano."  I dont believe them for a couple of reasons. One mano reeds are much more expensive than $700.  I called up Italo Accordions in Chicago Illinois and I spoke to their technician.  They can special order Cagnoni reeds tipo a mano from $800.  Mano reeds cost $1100.  They come already tuned.  You send him your box and he will install them to ensure the exact fit of the blocks.  However, I cannot order any now because something about Cagnoni being on vacation in all of August.  He told me the reeds arrive from a boat over seas.  They wont be available till September.   Im sure Gabbanelli goes through Cagnoni/Antonelli as described in the above message.  They do not make their own reeds and are not mano reeds as they claim. Good luck reed buyers!  
luistorres344

Avatar / Picture

Gold Member
Registered:
Posts: 374
 #24 
@johnpaulcampos, hey bro I juz noticed that Hohner started selling reeds &reed block on their hohner shop store online, u might want to try them, saludos.
__________________
"Los músicos no se retiran: paran cuando no hay más musica en su interior." autor: Louis Armstrong
Sue

Registered:
Posts: 5
 #25 
Nice video about handmade reeds
:-)
Karlitos_Way

Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 1,755
 #26 
Thanks for the link Sue.  I didn't know Ciccarelli had combined all these into one long video.  Good for us!
Kimric

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 68
 #27 
I agree that Gabbanelli seldom if ever uses hand made reeds, I had customers come in to get a broken reed replaced and he had a receipt from Gabbanelli that the instrument had "handmade reeds" the reeds were stamped Cagnoni and looked like the same grade of Cagnoni reeds that come with a Weltmeister 509 they may have been hand finished but it was hard to be sure.

 I agree that reed breakage is not really a quality issue but that the instrument is being pushed to hard ,I have rebuilt instruments that are 80-90 years old that have been played so much that the metal bellows corners are worn through (regular old hohner) and the reeds are all original and intact. A mic system can pay for itself in a year or so if it saves your reeds by allowing you to play a bit more softly.

Hand finished reeds will often have the surface of the reed ground/sanded to have a curve that is a bit like an aircraft wing ,flat on the blue side and rounded on the side you can see.
 This is really evident on reeds from the 1940's and 50's. There was a lot of fakery even back then with reed heels being dyed to look blue, and I have worked on old instruments that had the reed you could see being beautifully curved, and the one inside the block almost not at all, but this case also may have been done for harmonic reasons and not cheapness. There have also been cases of the manufacturer using a press die that made a mark on the rivet that looked like hand hammer marks.

The most expensive reeds may not be the best reeds for the sound you want too, sort of like a Tesla roadster no matter how expensive it may be, would suck on a off road rally.


__________________
Smythe's Accordion Center, Oakland CA since 1997 sales and service
chingon501

Silver Member
Registered:
Posts: 152
 #28 
Here is a comparison of hohner and Italian reeds.
1st early 1950s T Reed.
2nd 1960s Corona.
3rd Cagnoni from Gabbanelli accordion.
4th from vintage Italian accordion.
Also the reeds are all the same note
chingon501

Silver Member
Registered:
Posts: 152
 #29 
As you can see the Cagnoni Reed from Gabbanelli does not have diamond rivet. All of the Gabbanelli accordions I have worked on have this type of reeds
chingon501

Silver Member
Registered:
Posts: 152
 #30 
The reeds are all the same note and octave. But they are different sizes I guess the bigger size would produce a more stronger sound. Kind of like a car sub woofer speaker.
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Untitled Document
Reyes Accordions reserves the right to delete any posts, or ban any member without notice or warning. Opinions on any subject including products by forum members are strictly the views and opinions of members who participate freely on this forum and not the views or opinions of Reyes Accordions. Since this is a privately owned community, the owner will dictate in which direction it sees fit in managing, moderating, and the advertisement content of this forum.


All images, material and info on this site are
Copyright? 2011 Reyes Accordions All Rights Reserved